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  1. Moodle
  2. MDL-25620

After deadline students who haven't completed a quiz/assignment should have a grade of 0 instead of blank

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    • Database:
      Any
    • Affected Branches:
      MOODLE_20_STABLE

      Description

      After an assignment/quiz is over it would be nice if all of the students who didn't complete it got a 0 instead of a blank grade. http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=163525

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            Hide
            timhunt Tim Hunt added a comment -

            I disagree. I think there is a big difference between not submitting the work, and submitting work but it being so bad it gets graded 0, and so the quiz/assignment should distinguish these two cases - as it does now.

            There should be the option, in the gradebook, to treat 'not submitted' as equivalent to 0 for the purposes of computing the course total grade - and this is already possible, using different aggregation methods.

            Therefore, I think that this bug should be closed won't-fix.

            Show
            timhunt Tim Hunt added a comment - I disagree. I think there is a big difference between not submitting the work, and submitting work but it being so bad it gets graded 0, and so the quiz/assignment should distinguish these two cases - as it does now. There should be the option, in the gradebook, to treat 'not submitted' as equivalent to 0 for the purposes of computing the course total grade - and this is already possible, using different aggregation methods. Therefore, I think that this bug should be closed won't-fix.
            Hide
            aressaissi Amir added a comment -

            As described in http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=194659#p848092, the issue is more about user friendliness than capability.

            Yes it is possible to set a whole category in the gradebook to aggregate including empty grades. But this causes unwanted consequences.
            1. What if that same category contains several offline assignments or manually graded assignments? Students' grades would be very low until the teacher graded it. If the weighting for an ungraded assignment was set to zero until it was graded it might work.
            2. However, this means that teachers would have to change the weighting every time a new assignment was given to the students. After recycling a Moodle course I would then have to return the 200-300 assignments to zero weighting...not fun.
            3. The issue is further exacerbated if you have different groups with different assignments. We can't control which group and which assignment will/will not count using weighting and aggregation including non-empty grades.

            Additionally, with younger students a blaring zero is needed to emphasis that that particular assignment must be done or was missed.

            I envision a solution similar to the 'upload a file' assignment with the following options for teachers:
            1. If student does not do assignment by due date - give zero
            2. Allow for possibility to do assignment after due date with penalty and option to email notification to teacher.
            3. To differentiate between a real 0 and a non-attempted 0, student can get feedback - NOT COMPLETED. Perhaps this can even be a user input field like with the grade boundary feedback.
            4. Select which groups these conditions will apply to (including the ALL GROUPS option).

            Bottom line, as teachers with 100s of students, we rely heavily on the automated feedback that quizzes can give. However, if Moodle doesn't clearly tell these students that they didn't do the assignment, the teacher, once again has to do the chasing.

            Please reconsider creating a fix to this problem. It seems to be one of the few issues with Moodle2 that stops me from using quizzes on a daily basis.

            Show
            aressaissi Amir added a comment - As described in http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=194659#p848092 , the issue is more about user friendliness than capability. Yes it is possible to set a whole category in the gradebook to aggregate including empty grades. But this causes unwanted consequences. 1. What if that same category contains several offline assignments or manually graded assignments? Students' grades would be very low until the teacher graded it. If the weighting for an ungraded assignment was set to zero until it was graded it might work. 2. However, this means that teachers would have to change the weighting every time a new assignment was given to the students. After recycling a Moodle course I would then have to return the 200-300 assignments to zero weighting...not fun. 3. The issue is further exacerbated if you have different groups with different assignments. We can't control which group and which assignment will/will not count using weighting and aggregation including non-empty grades. Additionally, with younger students a blaring zero is needed to emphasis that that particular assignment must be done or was missed. I envision a solution similar to the 'upload a file' assignment with the following options for teachers: 1. If student does not do assignment by due date - give zero 2. Allow for possibility to do assignment after due date with penalty and option to email notification to teacher. 3. To differentiate between a real 0 and a non-attempted 0, student can get feedback - NOT COMPLETED. Perhaps this can even be a user input field like with the grade boundary feedback. 4. Select which groups these conditions will apply to (including the ALL GROUPS option). Bottom line, as teachers with 100s of students, we rely heavily on the automated feedback that quizzes can give. However, if Moodle doesn't clearly tell these students that they didn't do the assignment, the teacher, once again has to do the chasing. Please reconsider creating a fix to this problem. It seems to be one of the few issues with Moodle2 that stops me from using quizzes on a daily basis.
            Hide
            tuliomn Tulio Nogueira added a comment -

            I agree with Amir and your solution.
            Additionally, I found it very useful in the Assignment module too. Specially that now (in 2.4), we have a third date representing the cut-off of that activity. If student dos not submit that assignment by the cut-off date, grade = 0 and send a feedback indicating "not submitted".

            I believe this would be a significant improvement and would reduce the activity correction time for teachers who have hundreds of students.

            Show
            tuliomn Tulio Nogueira added a comment - I agree with Amir and your solution. Additionally, I found it very useful in the Assignment module too. Specially that now (in 2.4), we have a third date representing the cut-off of that activity. If student dos not submit that assignment by the cut-off date, grade = 0 and send a feedback indicating "not submitted". I believe this would be a significant improvement and would reduce the activity correction time for teachers who have hundreds of students.
            Hide
            kiddlisa Lisa Kidder added a comment -

            I think the introduction of the cut-off date and being able to grant extensions makes something like this possible. Perhaps even an option of what should happen to the grade if a student hasn't submitted by the cut-off date - similar to the options we have when a quiz hits the time limit.

            Perhaps the following options - if the student has not submitted by the cut-off date..
            assign a grade of 0 with feedback - Not submitted
            assign a grade of 0
            nothing - leaves the grade as a dash

            Show
            kiddlisa Lisa Kidder added a comment - I think the introduction of the cut-off date and being able to grant extensions makes something like this possible. Perhaps even an option of what should happen to the grade if a student hasn't submitted by the cut-off date - similar to the options we have when a quiz hits the time limit. Perhaps the following options - if the student has not submitted by the cut-off date.. assign a grade of 0 with feedback - Not submitted assign a grade of 0 nothing - leaves the grade as a dash
            Hide
            kimboking Kimberly King added a comment -

            I agree with Tulio. This feature would be extremely beneficial to teachers with hundreds of students who would rather not have the tedious task of manually replacing the dash with a 0 for every non-submitted assignment. And I like Lisa's suggestion that it be an option, especially for those who do not wish to aggregate empty grades.

            Show
            kimboking Kimberly King added a comment - I agree with Tulio. This feature would be extremely beneficial to teachers with hundreds of students who would rather not have the tedious task of manually replacing the dash with a 0 for every non-submitted assignment. And I like Lisa's suggestion that it be an option, especially for those who do not wish to aggregate empty grades.
            Hide
            rhazen Ryan Hazen added a comment -

            I have spent a couple of hours trying to set up a scenario in gradebook where students' grades are calculated with the zero automatically by unchecking "aggregate only non empty grades" in full view in categories and items, but that also excludes quizzes and assignments that haven't been made available yet. This is, as far as I can tell, impossible.

            The problem here is that the "aggregate only non empty grades" does not take into account assignment date. Even if I hide the assignment I want aggregated as a zero until a specified date, it is calculated as a zero in gradebook. This makes the feature useless for what we are actually asking for in this tracker item.

            The easiest solution is to aggregate empty grades as zeroes only after the assignment opening date has passed. This would motivate students to complete quizzes while allowing them to see, as a percentage, where they stand at that point in the year.

            Show
            rhazen Ryan Hazen added a comment - I have spent a couple of hours trying to set up a scenario in gradebook where students' grades are calculated with the zero automatically by unchecking "aggregate only non empty grades" in full view in categories and items, but that also excludes quizzes and assignments that haven't been made available yet. This is, as far as I can tell, impossible. The problem here is that the "aggregate only non empty grades" does not take into account assignment date. Even if I hide the assignment I want aggregated as a zero until a specified date, it is calculated as a zero in gradebook. This makes the feature useless for what we are actually asking for in this tracker item. The easiest solution is to aggregate empty grades as zeroes only after the assignment opening date has passed. This would motivate students to complete quizzes while allowing them to see, as a percentage, where they stand at that point in the year.
            Hide
            justinlitalien Justin Litalien added a comment -

            Some of my faculty are panicking as our semester draws to a close. They just realized that non-attempts are not being calculated into the final scores, so students are receiving highly-inflated course grades. Many of these faculty wonder why Moodle isn't automatically putting in a 0 for these non-existent quiz attempts.

            I understand the checkbox in Full View, but intuitively, I think this should be common behavior on the Quiz itself (and not to change a setting in Full View, which isn't the friendliest place to instructors).

            I'm also unsure of the reasoning Tim provided as the dissenting opinion. If a student doesn't do work, its a zero, case closed. This is the same behavior we all experienced in grade school. No assignment at the due date? Sorry, you receive a 0.

            Bottom line is that the automatic course score turns out to be very misleading. I think we should revisit this.

            Show
            justinlitalien Justin Litalien added a comment - Some of my faculty are panicking as our semester draws to a close. They just realized that non-attempts are not being calculated into the final scores, so students are receiving highly-inflated course grades. Many of these faculty wonder why Moodle isn't automatically putting in a 0 for these non-existent quiz attempts. I understand the checkbox in Full View, but intuitively, I think this should be common behavior on the Quiz itself (and not to change a setting in Full View, which isn't the friendliest place to instructors). I'm also unsure of the reasoning Tim provided as the dissenting opinion. If a student doesn't do work, its a zero, case closed. This is the same behavior we all experienced in grade school. No assignment at the due date? Sorry, you receive a 0. Bottom line is that the automatic course score turns out to be very misleading. I think we should revisit this.
            Hide
            seanucsf sean mcclelland added a comment -

            I have instructors at my university asking for this feature, too. Otherwise, this is a manual process and prone to human error, especially in a very large course.

            Show
            seanucsf sean mcclelland added a comment - I have instructors at my university asking for this feature, too. Otherwise, this is a manual process and prone to human error, especially in a very large course.
            Hide
            kwiliarty Kevin Wiliarty added a comment -

            I would like to see this change, and I am hearing the same from faculty I support. If a Quiz has a deadline, then there should be an option to register a zero score when the deadline hits, and it should probably be the default behavior. Aggregating empty grades has undesired consequences, as others have already described. I also find that adding zeros manually is a less-than-ideal work-around. When you override grades in the gradebook, they do not report back to the activity, but the grade should be in both places. Forgetting to add zeros will result in effective grade errors. The grade history could reflect the fact that a non-submission is not the same as a submission with no correct answers. I believe that the correct way to ignore these zeros – if that is the desired behavior – would be by dropping some number of lowest grades. It is not necessary to set a closing date when you create a Quiz, but if you have done so, it is probably because the work needs to be submitted by a certain time in order get credit for it.

            Show
            kwiliarty Kevin Wiliarty added a comment - I would like to see this change, and I am hearing the same from faculty I support. If a Quiz has a deadline, then there should be an option to register a zero score when the deadline hits, and it should probably be the default behavior. Aggregating empty grades has undesired consequences, as others have already described. I also find that adding zeros manually is a less-than-ideal work-around. When you override grades in the gradebook, they do not report back to the activity, but the grade should be in both places. Forgetting to add zeros will result in effective grade errors. The grade history could reflect the fact that a non-submission is not the same as a submission with no correct answers. I believe that the correct way to ignore these zeros – if that is the desired behavior – would be by dropping some number of lowest grades. It is not necessary to set a closing date when you create a Quiz, but if you have done so, it is probably because the work needs to be submitted by a certain time in order get credit for it.
            Hide
            medwards700 Michele Edwards added a comment -

            I would like to add my voice to the well expressed sentiments of Tulio, Lisa, Amir, Kevin – and others explaining why this functionality is so important. I have received the request for “automatic entry of zero for quizzes once the due date has passed” from faculty members – as recently as February 12, 2015.

            Show
            medwards700 Michele Edwards added a comment - I would like to add my voice to the well expressed sentiments of Tulio, Lisa, Amir, Kevin – and others explaining why this functionality is so important. I have received the request for “automatic entry of zero for quizzes once the due date has passed” from faculty members – as recently as February 12, 2015.
            Hide
            kiddlisa Lisa Kidder added a comment - - edited

            The new single view https://docs.moodle.org/28/en/Single_view in 2.8 will most likely solve this issue for many.
            While I do think an automatic 0 would be nice, because the quiz tool can also be used as a learning activity, there may be times an instructor may not want the automatic 0 (although I have yet to think of one).

            Show
            kiddlisa Lisa Kidder added a comment - - edited The new single view https://docs.moodle.org/28/en/Single_view in 2.8 will most likely solve this issue for many. While I do think an automatic 0 would be nice, because the quiz tool can also be used as a learning activity, there may be times an instructor may not want the automatic 0 (although I have yet to think of one).
            Hide
            caroline Caroline Tam added a comment -

            After discussing this on a conference call with other institutions using Moodle, I tested to see if an assignment activity automatically grades students with 0 points after the cut off date. In my instance of 2.7.11, it does not, not even with workflows set.

            But I can see a valid case for instructions to want students who haven't completed quizzes to receive a 0 instead of a blank grade.

            Show
            caroline Caroline Tam added a comment - After discussing this on a conference call with other institutions using Moodle, I tested to see if an assignment activity automatically grades students with 0 points after the cut off date. In my instance of 2.7.11, it does not, not even with workflows set. But I can see a valid case for instructions to want students who haven't completed quizzes to receive a 0 instead of a blank grade.
            Hide
            aressaissi Amir added a comment - - edited

            Unfortunately it's issues like this one, that go unaddressed even though many users are commenting, which have caused me to wonder if it's time for our district to outsource for a paid LMS. There are great LMS out now, fully formatted for tablets and cell phones with incredible capabilities. Moodle is quickly falling behind as a full-fledged LMS for larger institutions. Of course there are many institutions around the world that can't pay for a LMS but there are even free, albeit limited, systems that could replace Moodle. It is very sad because I love open source and would love to see Moodle be competitive but it seems like Moodle has become very heavy and a directed overhaul is nearly impossible.

            Show
            aressaissi Amir added a comment - - edited Unfortunately it's issues like this one, that go unaddressed even though many users are commenting, which have caused me to wonder if it's time for our district to outsource for a paid LMS. There are great LMS out now, fully formatted for tablets and cell phones with incredible capabilities. Moodle is quickly falling behind as a full-fledged LMS for larger institutions. Of course there are many institutions around the world that can't pay for a LMS but there are even free, albeit limited, systems that could replace Moodle. It is very sad because I love open source and would love to see Moodle be competitive but it seems like Moodle has become very heavy and a directed overhaul is nearly impossible.
            Hide
            akrawitz Adam Krawitz added a comment -

            I want to voice my support for resolving this issue. Assigning a 0 when a student does not complete a quiz/assignment by the deadline is a very common use case.

            I also want to suggest an approach to a solution:
            Add an option for the following: If a student has not started any attempts when the deadline is reached, then a new attempt is created for the student and immediately auto-submitted. This will (a) lead to the student having a 0 instead of no grade after the deadline, which addresses this issue, MDL-25620 (https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-25620), and (b) will then allow the student to review the correct answers after the deadline if that has been enabled, which addresses this other long-standing issue, MDL-20329 (https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-20329).

            Show
            akrawitz Adam Krawitz added a comment - I want to voice my support for resolving this issue. Assigning a 0 when a student does not complete a quiz/assignment by the deadline is a very common use case. I also want to suggest an approach to a solution: Add an option for the following: If a student has not started any attempts when the deadline is reached, then a new attempt is created for the student and immediately auto-submitted. This will (a) lead to the student having a 0 instead of no grade after the deadline, which addresses this issue, MDL-25620 ( https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-25620 ), and (b) will then allow the student to review the correct answers after the deadline if that has been enabled, which addresses this other long-standing issue, MDL-20329 ( https://tracker.moodle.org/browse/MDL-20329 ).

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