Moodle
  1. Moodle
  2. MDL-28238

Erroneous feedback shown when comma is used as a decimal separator in cloze questions

    Details

    • Type: Bug Bug
    • Status: Development in progress
    • Priority: Major Major
    • Resolution: Unresolved
    • Affects Version/s: 2.1
    • Fix Version/s: STABLE backlog
    • Component/s: Questions
    • Labels:
    • Rank:
      17857

      Description

      To reproduce:

      1) Set up a quiz with a cloze question with some numerical sub-questions on it. Set question behaviour to "Deferred feedback", and review options to "The attempt" + "Whether correct" + "Marks" everywhere.

      2) Take the quiz and fill the answers with correct values but using commas instead of dots as decimal separators (or use a mix of dot and comma, to see the differences).

      3) Submit the attempt and review the result. You'll see that, although the question is correctly graded, feddback isn't shown correctly when comma is used. Moreover, in that case the feedback box surprisingly shows the sub-question as "not answered". See figure attached.

      This may be a bug in feedback display code, because the numerical value is always well parsed and grade is correct.

        Activity

        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        The not answered state for a response with a , seems the main problem.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - The not answered state for a response with a , seems the main problem.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        The return from apply unit could possibly gives a null value if there is no . in the response...
        this could explain the problem

        Sorry this could not be tested from an Ipad...

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - The return from apply unit could possibly gives a null value if there is no . in the response... this could explain the problem Sorry this could not be tested from an Ipad...
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        I do not understand why you are testing for thousands separator in the is_complete response and set is complete to false if there a such thousand separator.
        apply_unit was modified to handle such thousands separator.

        This appaears has the main factor for the actual bug.
        this test on thousand separator should be removed...

        Also I do not understand why you are storing the separator and the decsep in the attempt data ?

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - I do not understand why you are testing for thousands separator in the is_complete response and set is complete to false if there a such thousand separator. apply_unit was modified to handle such thousands separator. This appaears has the main factor for the actual bug. this test on thousand separator should be removed... Also I do not understand why you are storing the separator and the decsep in the attempt data ?
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        for some reasons, I cannot edit my comments when using the Ipad .

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - for some reasons, I cannot edit my comments when using the Ipad .
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        This appears to be related to our discussion about number,units and more fundametally to how to handle in the new engine the multianswer states of numerical.

        For example what is a complete answer in such a numerical question with a unit for which a penalty can be applied if not the rigth number-unit combination?
        How a no unit in the response can be interpreted differently that a badly written unit i.e. c is cm badly written but any character even none can be seen as a badly written cm unit.

        And in the revese situation, is a bad number with a good unit can be seen as a complete response ?
        There is a quiz forum issue where a teacher asked how can we set in 2,0 the parameters so that there is a grade if the numerical is bad and the unit is good as his students want a grade for such a state.

        This somewhat fundamental discussion should be continued later i.e after holidays

        However I think that the test for thousands seps should should be removed.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - This appears to be related to our discussion about number,units and more fundametally to how to handle in the new engine the multianswer states of numerical. For example what is a complete answer in such a numerical question with a unit for which a penalty can be applied if not the rigth number-unit combination? How a no unit in the response can be interpreted differently that a badly written unit i.e. c is cm badly written but any character even none can be seen as a badly written cm unit. And in the revese situation, is a bad number with a good unit can be seen as a complete response ? There is a quiz forum issue where a teacher asked how can we set in 2,0 the parameters so that there is a grade if the numerical is bad and the unit is good as his students want a grade for such a state. This somewhat fundamental discussion should be continued later i.e after holidays However I think that the test for thousands seps should should be removed.
        Hide
        Orestes Mas added a comment -

        Has it been any progress regarding this bug? It's still present in 2.1.1+...

        Show
        Orestes Mas added a comment - Has it been any progress regarding this bug? It's still present in 2.1.1+...
        Hide
        Margarita Sanz added a comment -

        Is anybody trying to resolve this bug?

        Show
        Margarita Sanz added a comment - Is anybody trying to resolve this bug?
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Thanks to remind us this problem.

        In cloze question because of the restricted interface, the use of . to define the numerical value of the response is mandatory.
        If the student put a , in his response as here -0,02 this is translated as 0 .
        The remaining value after the , is ignored by the code.
        And the actual code considers that 0 is an empty value so the not answered status.
        I will look at the actual 2,2+ code to see if this is always the case.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Thanks to remind us this problem. In cloze question because of the restricted interface, the use of . to define the numerical value of the response is mandatory. If the student put a , in his response as here -0,02 this is translated as 0 . The remaining value after the , is ignored by the code. And the actual code considers that 0 is an empty value so the not answered status. I will look at the actual 2,2+ code to see if this is always the case.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        On actual master putting a , in a cloze numerical question does give a non response value ( i have to look closer in the code to find which expression needs to be corrected.
        However if you switch your system to another language where comma , is the decsep like french then the grading is OK although the correct response in the feedback popup is shown with the original dot . number answer.

        The editing interface does not allow to set the answer with a , as the answer is saved directly in the database.

        There was a proposal in another bug to use localized number in cloze syntax.

        I decide to not fix it as this will render cloze questions sensitive to the local parameters.
        This would need to change the cloze syntax and regexp analysis which is already sufficiently complex...

        So the actual state is that the teacher define the number using .dot and the student can answer using the localize decsep.

        Some trimmings could be done on the display.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - On actual master putting a , in a cloze numerical question does give a non response value ( i have to look closer in the code to find which expression needs to be corrected. However if you switch your system to another language where comma , is the decsep like french then the grading is OK although the correct response in the feedback popup is shown with the original dot . number answer. The editing interface does not allow to set the answer with a , as the answer is saved directly in the database. There was a proposal in another bug to use localized number in cloze syntax. I decide to not fix it as this will render cloze questions sensitive to the local parameters. This would need to change the cloze syntax and regexp analysis which is already sufficiently complex... So the actual state is that the teacher define the number using .dot and the student can answer using the localize decsep. Some trimmings could be done on the display.
        Hide
        Orestes Mas added a comment -

        I understand your reasons for not trying to fix it. Nevertheless, in my opinion the situation is a little worse than the one you describe, because:

        1) Correct answers are shown in red, confusing students who always ask for clarification. In a multi-attempt quiz this bug can lead students to waste time trying to find where have they been wrong, when they've not.

        2) In recent Moodle versions I've also noticed that cloze questions with numerical sub-questions answered with a decimal number using comma as a decimal separator are marked as "incomplete answer" in the attempt summary prior to submission, which causes a lot of confusion and anxiety.

        The only workaround I've found to date is to redefine the "decsep" and "thousandssep" strings in "langconfig.php", to set them as in english and ask students to use english conventions to input decimal numbers all over the entire site. Obviously, this is not ancceptable solution for the long term.

        Show
        Orestes Mas added a comment - I understand your reasons for not trying to fix it. Nevertheless, in my opinion the situation is a little worse than the one you describe, because: 1) Correct answers are shown in red, confusing students who always ask for clarification. In a multi-attempt quiz this bug can lead students to waste time trying to find where have they been wrong, when they've not. 2) In recent Moodle versions I've also noticed that cloze questions with numerical sub-questions answered with a decimal number using comma as a decimal separator are marked as "incomplete answer" in the attempt summary prior to submission, which causes a lot of confusion and anxiety. The only workaround I've found to date is to redefine the "decsep" and "thousandssep" strings in "langconfig.php", to set them as in english and ask students to use english conventions to input decimal numbers all over the entire site. Obviously, this is not ancceptable solution for the long term.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Thanks for your comments.
        This issue is not closed because I am working on it
        ("Some trimmings could be done on the display")
        and related issues as the non answered state.
        The student can use the "normal decsep" that is allowed to use.
        However the teacher need to use the PHP standard decsep i.e. dot
        See MDL-29691

        There can be a known problem if the teacher read the grade in another language with a different decsep.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Thanks for your comments. This issue is not closed because I am working on it ("Some trimmings could be done on the display") and related issues as the non answered state. The student can use the "normal decsep" that is allowed to use. However the teacher need to use the PHP standard decsep i.e. dot See MDL-29691 There can be a known problem if the teacher read the grade in another language with a different decsep.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        I just read back your example and I realize that you are using english as moodle language and a spanish question text.

        The actual code cannot handle this.

        I could also say will not handle this in a near future.

        However if you allow students and teacher to change the language for a given course then things should work correctly.

        More precisely the moodle language setting requirement for numerical question is that the languages decseps and thousands separators should be the same as the question language used.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - I just read back your example and I realize that you are using english as moodle language and a spanish question text. The actual code cannot handle this. I could also say will not handle this in a near future. However if you allow students and teacher to change the language for a given course then things should work correctly. More precisely the moodle language setting requirement for numerical question is that the languages decseps and thousands separators should be the same as the question language used.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        However in the actual state, this requirement is not solved for numerical as I just tested.
        Stay tune, this correct answer problem is on the drawing board...

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - However in the actual state, this requirement is not solved for numerical as I just tested. Stay tune, this correct answer problem is on the drawing board...
        Hide
        Orestes Mas added a comment - - edited

        Hello Pierre,

        Don't worry about the mix of languages in my screenshot (in fact question text isn't spanish but catalan). I just changed moodle interface language only to take the screenshot in order to help non-catalan readers to understand the problem.

        Normally we have both the interface and the question text in catalan, so this isn't the origin of the problem.

        Thanks for your work on quiz and questions. We'll stay tuned.

        Show
        Orestes Mas added a comment - - edited Hello Pierre, Don't worry about the mix of languages in my screenshot (in fact question text isn't spanish but catalan). I just changed moodle interface language only to take the screenshot in order to help non-catalan readers to understand the problem. Normally we have both the interface and the question text in catalan, so this isn't the origin of the problem. Thanks for your work on quiz and questions. We'll stay tuned.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited

        I found a solution that mimic correctly the grading of regular numerical i.e. the grade is the same for . or , used as decsep.
        see MDL-31889

        The multianswer renderer has an empty renderer:correct_response() function which is something I forgot for an hour or two...
        The equivalent display is done in the popup.

        I will clean the code and put here a temporary patch.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited I found a solution that mimic correctly the grading of regular numerical i.e. the grade is the same for . or , used as decsep. see MDL-31889 The multianswer renderer has an empty renderer:correct_response() function which is something I forgot for an hour or two... The equivalent display is done in the popup. I will clean the code and put here a temporary patch.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited

        This seems to correct the problem at least in french...

        @@ -175,11 +175,13 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render
         
                 $response = $qa->get_last_qt_var($fieldname);
                 if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') {
                     $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer(array('answer' => $response));
                 } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') {
        -            $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($response, 1);
        +            // Decode the numerical value from the response
        +            list($value, $unit, $multiplier) = $subq->ap->apply_units($response, '');
        +            $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($value, '');
                 } else {
                     $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($response);
                 }
         
                 if (!$matchinganswer) {
        @@ -209,12 +211,16 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render
                 if ($options->correctness) {
                     $inputattributes['class'] = $this->feedback_class($matchinganswer->fraction);
                     $feedbackimg = $this->feedback_image($matchinganswer->fraction);
                 }
         
                 if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') {
                     $correctanswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($subq->get_correct_response());
        +        } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') {
        +            $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response();
        +            // the ->answer is the only parameter used ;
        +            $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer'];
                 } else {
                     $correctanswer = $subq->get_correct_answer();
                 }
         
                 $feedbackpopup = $this->feedback_popup($subq, $matchinganswer->fraction,
        
        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited This seems to correct the problem at least in french... @@ -175,11 +175,13 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render $response = $qa->get_last_qt_var($fieldname); if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') { $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer(array('answer' => $response)); } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') { - $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($response, 1); + // Decode the numerical value from the response + list($value, $unit, $multiplier) = $subq->ap->apply_units($response, ''); + $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($value, ''); } else { $matchinganswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($response); } if (!$matchinganswer) { @@ -209,12 +211,16 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render if ($options->correctness) { $inputattributes['class'] = $this->feedback_class($matchinganswer->fraction); $feedbackimg = $this->feedback_image($matchinganswer->fraction); } if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') { $correctanswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($subq->get_correct_response()); + } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') { + $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response(); + // the ->answer is the only parameter used ; + $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer']; } else { $correctanswer = $subq->get_correct_answer(); } $feedbackpopup = $this->feedback_popup($subq, $matchinganswer->fraction,
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Tim,
        Given the work done I think the start developement is appropriate...

        Trying to set some walktrough simpletests, I realize that the
        class qtype_multianswer_walkthrough_test extends qbehaviour_walkthrough_test_base {
        public function test_interactive() {
        return; // TODO
        So I propose to let this as it is and to define more the detailed tests to be done in the reviewing process.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Tim, Given the work done I think the start developement is appropriate... Trying to set some walktrough simpletests, I realize that the class qtype_multianswer_walkthrough_test extends qbehaviour_walkthrough_test_base { public function test_interactive() { return; // TODO So I propose to let this as it is and to define more the detailed tests to be done in the reviewing process.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Tim,

        I have a bad understanding of the development in progress state.

        "The VERY first thing you should do when you start working on a Moodle issue is make sure you have assigned it to yourself and then click the start progress button."
        from http://docs.moodle.org/dev/User:Sam_Hemelryk/My_Moodle_Git_workflow

        Anyway, a small question:

        Doing the patch I used `

        +            $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response();
        +            // the ->answer is the only parameter used ;
        +            $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer'];
        
        

        where $correctanswer is not defined.
        There was no debug message and Tim codechecker conclude Well done!

        The final version will be the more regular
        + } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') {
        + $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response();
        + $correctanswer = new stdClass();
        + // the ->answer is the only parameter used ;
        + $correctanswer->answer = $correctresp['answer'];

        BTW I also use Marina moodle checker which test other aspects that I will not included in this small patch.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Tim, I have a bad understanding of the development in progress state. "The VERY first thing you should do when you start working on a Moodle issue is make sure you have assigned it to yourself and then click the start progress button." from http://docs.moodle.org/dev/User:Sam_Hemelryk/My_Moodle_Git_workflow Anyway, a small question: Doing the patch I used ` + $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response(); + // the ->answer is the only parameter used ; + $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer']; where $correctanswer is not defined. There was no debug message and Tim codechecker conclude Well done! The final version will be the more regular + } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') { + $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response(); + $correctanswer = new stdClass(); + // the ->answer is the only parameter used ; + $correctanswer->answer = $correctresp ['answer'] ; BTW I also use Marina moodle checker which test other aspects that I will not included in this small patch.
        Hide
        Tim Hunt added a comment -

        Doing

        $correctanswer = new stdClass();

        is the right thing to do. If codechecker does not detect this problem, that is a bug in codechecker.

        Anway, it sounds like we have a fix for this problem, but we now need a fix in git so that this can be sumitted for integration. Let me know if I can help with the mechanics of using git to do that.

        Show
        Tim Hunt added a comment - Doing $correctanswer = new stdClass(); is the right thing to do. If codechecker does not detect this problem, that is a bug in codechecker. Anway, it sounds like we have a fix for this problem, but we now need a fix in git so that this can be sumitted for integration. Let me know if I can help with the mechanics of using git to do that.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Thanks for your proposal.
        I will prepare the master version with the major tests to do and let you manage the other versions.
        Then go to the next similar bug...

        The main philosophy of actual decsep and thousand handling is that the user should not be penalized if he use is language decsep and or PHP numbering.
        the apply_units() has some limitations when people do not put the decsep as in 1,345 (english) or in the special case (german) where . is used for thousand sep.

        For example the response 1.223,8 written with deutch as langage appears as 1.2238

        So we have not a complete solution.

        If we introduce the ap-decsep and separator in the apply-unit, then we should be able to solve the problem.

        OR we use a general notice to NOT use the thousands separators.

        I will try to figure how to mix parts of your decode functions to allow users use their own langage formats.
        This could be something like first test if the local language seps are there so use without any more decoding.

        However the grading will be valid only if we grade with the same language...

        Oups here we go again....
        So let's cool down.

        The option of showing the admissible numerical formats that I used on 2,0 was not perhaps a so bad idea...

        BTW are the language settings saved in the attempt data ?

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Thanks for your proposal. I will prepare the master version with the major tests to do and let you manage the other versions. Then go to the next similar bug... The main philosophy of actual decsep and thousand handling is that the user should not be penalized if he use is language decsep and or PHP numbering. the apply_units() has some limitations when people do not put the decsep as in 1,345 (english) or in the special case (german) where . is used for thousand sep. For example the response 1.223,8 written with deutch as langage appears as 1.2238 So we have not a complete solution. If we introduce the ap-decsep and separator in the apply-unit, then we should be able to solve the problem. OR we use a general notice to NOT use the thousands separators. I will try to figure how to mix parts of your decode functions to allow users use their own langage formats. This could be something like first test if the local language seps are there so use without any more decoding. However the grading will be valid only if we grade with the same language... Oups here we go again.... So let's cool down. The option of showing the admissible numerical formats that I used on 2,0 was not perhaps a so bad idea... BTW are the language settings saved in the attempt data ?
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Tim,
        We implement the use of local decsep in numerical rendering of the good response.
        This imply that the student should be able to use the local language decsep and
        thousandsep in their response.

        As we did not implement a decsep,thousandsep specific penalty and because of
        the historical handling, our handling should comply equally to all the historical possibilities.

        Even if we do implement decsep penalty, it could not be applied to cloze questions
        so we need a solution that works correctly for local descep and the historical applyunit.

        There are many ways to modify the code to do this.

        But first, what is your option ?

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Tim, We implement the use of local decsep in numerical rendering of the good response. This imply that the student should be able to use the local language decsep and thousandsep in their response. As we did not implement a decsep,thousandsep specific penalty and because of the historical handling, our handling should comply equally to all the historical possibilities. Even if we do implement decsep penalty, it could not be applied to cloze questions so we need a solution that works correctly for local descep and the historical applyunit. There are many ways to modify the code to do this. But first, what is your option ?
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        Doing system test on moodle demo site with deutch as language for question/type/numerical shows 3 failures...
        and the possible problems with . as thousandseps are not specifically tested.

        I will experiment adding specific tests for various language and any suggested code modifications...

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - Doing system test on moodle demo site with deutch as language for question/type/numerical shows 3 failures... and the possible problems with . as thousandseps are not specifically tested. I will experiment adding specific tests for various language and any suggested code modifications...
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        "BTW are the language settings saved in the attempt data ?"
        _separators

        I will take a closer look how this is handled is cloze.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - "BTW are the language settings saved in the attempt data ?" _separators I will take a closer look how this is handled is cloze.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited

        This will be solved as MDL-33105 should be applied this week.
        However working on this I also solved the pop-up correct response that is currently not set to the decsep.

        @@ -213,10 +213,15 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render
                     $feedbackimg = $this->feedback_image($matchinganswer->fraction);
                 }
         
                 if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') {
                     $correctanswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($subq->get_correct_response());
        +        } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') {
        +            $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response();
        +            // the ->answer is the only parameter used ;
        +            $correctanswer = new stdClass();
        +            $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer'];
                 } else {
                     $correctanswer = $subq->get_correct_answer();
                 }
         
                 $feedbackpopup = $this->feedback_popup($subq, $matchinganswer->fraction,
        
        

        This will allow multianswer numerical display the same correct response than the regular numerical.
        So my proposal is to wait next week for integrating this and change the title of this bug to the correct response display.

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - - edited This will be solved as MDL-33105 should be applied this week. However working on this I also solved the pop-up correct response that is currently not set to the decsep. @@ -213,10 +213,15 @@ class qtype_multianswer_textfield_renderer extends qtype_multianswer_subq_render $feedbackimg = $this->feedback_image($matchinganswer->fraction); } if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'shortanswer') { $correctanswer = $subq->get_matching_answer($subq->get_correct_response()); + } else if ($subq->qtype->name() == 'numerical') { + $correctresp = $subq->get_correct_response(); + // the ->answer is the only parameter used ; + $correctanswer = new stdClass(); + $correctanswer->answer=$correctresp['answer']; } else { $correctanswer = $subq->get_correct_answer(); } $feedbackpopup = $this->feedback_popup($subq, $matchinganswer->fraction, This will allow multianswer numerical display the same correct response than the regular numerical. So my proposal is to wait next week for integrating this and change the title of this bug to the correct response display.
        Hide
        Tim Hunt added a comment -

        That sounds like a good approach.

        Show
        Tim Hunt added a comment - That sounds like a good approach.
        Hide
        Tim Hunt added a comment -

        Also taking this one out of peer review for now.

        Show
        Tim Hunt added a comment - Also taking this one out of peer review for now.
        Hide
        Saad Mengal added a comment -

        Hi,

        Using Moodle 2.5, Having this issue.

        Is it solved? Or should i edit the code as mentioned above.

        Thanks.

        Show
        Saad Mengal added a comment - Hi, Using Moodle 2.5, Having this issue. Is it solved? Or should i edit the code as mentioned above. Thanks.
        Hide
        Jan Eberhardt added a comment - - edited

        Sry... problem seemed the same, but is different to mine.

        Show
        Jan Eberhardt added a comment - - edited Sry... problem seemed the same, but is different to mine.
        Hide
        Pierre Pichet added a comment -

        What is your problem ?

        This issue is not solved as it is related to MDL-33105.
        I am reinstalling all my stuff on a new computer, so there is hope...

        Show
        Pierre Pichet added a comment - What is your problem ? This issue is not solved as it is related to MDL-33105 . I am reinstalling all my stuff on a new computer, so there is hope...

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            • Created:
              Updated: