Details

    • Type: Improvement Improvement
    • Status: Open
    • Priority: Minor Minor
    • Resolution: Unresolved
    • Component/s: docs.moodle.org, moodle.org
    • Labels:
      None
    • Rank:
      25456

      Description

      With as many people who are discussing and working with asciimathml it would be extremely beneficial if Moodle.org deployed asciimathml with fallback for at least moodle.org via a theme, which would present a very nominal impact (simply an option for an additional theme which would be an existing theme such as moodle2 with the asciimathml with fallback reference). Most of the work to implement this has already been done and if access to the asciimathml.js file were made available to target developers, it could be managed effectively without impacting much of anything sitewise.

        Issue Links

          Activity

          Hide
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment -

          Once we implement this I guess we'd have to keep it forever (to keep existing content functional).

          This is not a problem, just saying it's not a decision to take lightly, especially if there is any significant maintenance we'd need to do.

          Can you post a quick HOW TO here with links to recommended versions and how you think we should install it?

          Show
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment - Once we implement this I guess we'd have to keep it forever (to keep existing content functional). This is not a problem, just saying it's not a decision to take lightly, especially if there is any significant maintenance we'd need to do. Can you post a quick HOW TO here with links to recommended versions and how you think we should install it?
          Hide
          Marc Grober added a comment -

          Quick How To
          1) Copy Moodle 2 Theme to create new theme (MoodleMaths)
          2) Follow instructions here: http://docs.moodle.org/en/ASCIIMathML#Invoking_via_meta.php
          3) Total time for implementation: approximately 10 minutes
          4) Impact on users not selecting the Moodle Maths theme: none

          Issues:
          1) Long range questions - while asciimath will change (mauno is hard at work on SEE and others have discussed converting the current single file implementation to multiple libraries), the impact on moodle (in forums and/or mediawiki will only be some changes on server side. Additionally, while functionality may increase, this will not diminish existing functionality (see caveat below)
          2) Moodle 2 - Should, as I hope, dragmath and asciimath be incorporated as SEE in Moodle 2, users will only see a change in editor functionality, but display won't change.
          3) Maintenance - pending Mauno's development I would suggest that the ability to modify the contents of the asciimath directory be provided to Mauno or myself via some mechanism so that updates can be addressed; unlike tex (which is now having problems) asciimath is self contained and a client side implementation which makes it self contained and much easier to manage.
          4) Experience - While this might look like a limited solution (and in some respects it is) it also provides us with a broader opportunity to address usage on a voluntary basis so as to ensure that any Moodle 2 incorporation follows broad vetting. Among other things, we could experiment with turning off the tex filter to that theme as well.
          5) Usage - The only possible downside (and this is searching hard for the slightest concern) is the question of tokens vs tags. It is possible to implement asciimath by using span tags as opposed to tokens and Mauno and I have been playing with same for some time. I think some discussion of this still appears in the moodle wiki where eloy was playing with tex (I believe there is a link there as well to my mediawiki where I demonstrated how easy it is to have asciimath and tex living side by side.) I don't see this as an issue with the forums unless and until tex usage also veers from using tokens, in which case there will have to be major substitutions done in the db anyway...... Additionally, we could caution users to confine postings using asciimath to the math forum initially (that's where most usage would likely appear anyway)
          6) Fallback - The version posted provides for fallback to mimetex. I am happy to provide access to my version as I am way under my bandwidth (much as forkosh affords access to his). As usage rises we can roundrobin fallback although I don't think it will be a problem. Fallback can also be done to Mathtex and Mauno has been experimenting with other options for just this purpose so as to address all issues with incorporation in Moodle 2 prior to Moodle 2's release.

          Alternatives (and I hesitate to suggest alternatives as they always provide a basis not to move forward - LOL) - Probably the most promising alternative would be to abandon the existing perl algebra filter (which really simply offers a subset of tex) and replace it with LatexML, which is also perl based but produces MathML from text text-expressions. Downside of this is that it still relies on tex usage, and one reason asciimath is so popular (and the reason Peter wrote it) is that asciimath is much simpler for students to learn............ So, I would argue that we should replace the algebra filter with latexML anyway, which would offer users direct tex to mathml, tex to image via the existing tex filter (and this would allow us to compare usage between the two) and asciimath, the latter not because it will ever replace tex as a standard, but because it is a great pedagogical tool that Moodle should support, but which is very difficult to support where users can't get their expressions displayed....

          Show
          Marc Grober added a comment - Quick How To 1) Copy Moodle 2 Theme to create new theme (MoodleMaths) 2) Follow instructions here: http://docs.moodle.org/en/ASCIIMathML#Invoking_via_meta.php 3) Total time for implementation: approximately 10 minutes 4) Impact on users not selecting the Moodle Maths theme: none Issues: 1) Long range questions - while asciimath will change (mauno is hard at work on SEE and others have discussed converting the current single file implementation to multiple libraries), the impact on moodle (in forums and/or mediawiki will only be some changes on server side. Additionally, while functionality may increase, this will not diminish existing functionality (see caveat below) 2) Moodle 2 - Should, as I hope, dragmath and asciimath be incorporated as SEE in Moodle 2, users will only see a change in editor functionality, but display won't change. 3) Maintenance - pending Mauno's development I would suggest that the ability to modify the contents of the asciimath directory be provided to Mauno or myself via some mechanism so that updates can be addressed; unlike tex (which is now having problems) asciimath is self contained and a client side implementation which makes it self contained and much easier to manage. 4) Experience - While this might look like a limited solution (and in some respects it is) it also provides us with a broader opportunity to address usage on a voluntary basis so as to ensure that any Moodle 2 incorporation follows broad vetting. Among other things, we could experiment with turning off the tex filter to that theme as well. 5) Usage - The only possible downside (and this is searching hard for the slightest concern) is the question of tokens vs tags. It is possible to implement asciimath by using span tags as opposed to tokens and Mauno and I have been playing with same for some time. I think some discussion of this still appears in the moodle wiki where eloy was playing with tex (I believe there is a link there as well to my mediawiki where I demonstrated how easy it is to have asciimath and tex living side by side.) I don't see this as an issue with the forums unless and until tex usage also veers from using tokens, in which case there will have to be major substitutions done in the db anyway...... Additionally, we could caution users to confine postings using asciimath to the math forum initially (that's where most usage would likely appear anyway) 6) Fallback - The version posted provides for fallback to mimetex. I am happy to provide access to my version as I am way under my bandwidth (much as forkosh affords access to his). As usage rises we can roundrobin fallback although I don't think it will be a problem. Fallback can also be done to Mathtex and Mauno has been experimenting with other options for just this purpose so as to address all issues with incorporation in Moodle 2 prior to Moodle 2's release. Alternatives (and I hesitate to suggest alternatives as they always provide a basis not to move forward - LOL) - Probably the most promising alternative would be to abandon the existing perl algebra filter (which really simply offers a subset of tex) and replace it with LatexML, which is also perl based but produces MathML from text text-expressions. Downside of this is that it still relies on tex usage, and one reason asciimath is so popular (and the reason Peter wrote it) is that asciimath is much simpler for students to learn............ So, I would argue that we should replace the algebra filter with latexML anyway, which would offer users direct tex to mathml, tex to image via the existing tex filter (and this would allow us to compare usage between the two) and asciimath, the latter not because it will ever replace tex as a standard, but because it is a great pedagogical tool that Moodle should support, but which is very difficult to support where users can't get their expressions displayed....
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          I have been busy with creating new editor plugins for helping the use of asciimathml and asciisvg http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=121738 but a quick comment to 6) :

          If version ASCIIMathML2wMnGFallback.js is used ( link given in http://docs.moodle.org/en/ASCIIMathML#Invoking_via_meta.php )

          var AMTcgiloc = "http://www.imathas.com/cgi-bin/mimetex.cgi"; //path to CGI script that
          can render a TeX string

          can be changed to use any optional tex image fallback renderer - line

          node.src = AMTcgiloc + '?' + texstring;
          must just be changed to
          node.src = AMTcgiloc + texstring;
          in function AMTparseMath(str,istex) of that file

          I have tested for example a cleaned and modified texdebug.php script as image fallback script (files of tex filter are used if mathml is not supported) and it seems to work ok. This only requires that site has correct latex, dvips and convert paths (other than mimetex and ImageMagick or Ghostscript installed) to produce nice png files.

          With this script placed to filter/tex folder it is also possible to use for example package color and change density but it may be better to limit density changes to avoid too large images. Example (demo) of usage of this tiny tex filter based fallback script

          http://korpelainen.net/m19tiny2/filter/tex/tinytex.php?action=ShowImageTex&amdensity=200&tex=\textcolor

          {blue} {\alpha}

          \textcolor

          {green}

          {\mathcal{ABC}}\sum_

          {m=1}

          ^\infty\sum_

          {n=1}

          ^\infty\frac

          {m^2\,n} {3^m\left(m\,3^n+n\,3^m\right)}

          Some settings of asciimathml js file must be selected carefully, for example

          avoidinnerHTML must be true with tinymce
          notifyIfNoSVG could be false to avoid confusion

          but basicly the whole integration can be made with one row in theme header.html, meta.php or footer.html:

          <script type="text/javascript" src="path to asciimathml script"></script>

          and extra parameters (variables) can be given inside script tags like <script type="text/javascript">var mathfontfamily = 'STIXGeneral,Arial Unicode MS,"Lucida Sans Unicode","Lucida Grande",Garuda,sans-serif';</script> in theme if different settings are needed in different themes but all settings can be given in the script file itself as well.

          We could well start with a some basic version of script like that ASCIIMathML2wMnGFallback.js and modify and replace it later with a new version with new features if necessary...

          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - I have been busy with creating new editor plugins for helping the use of asciimathml and asciisvg http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=121738 but a quick comment to 6) : If version ASCIIMathML2wMnGFallback.js is used ( link given in http://docs.moodle.org/en/ASCIIMathML#Invoking_via_meta.php ) var AMTcgiloc = "http://www.imathas.com/cgi-bin/mimetex.cgi"; //path to CGI script that can render a TeX string can be changed to use any optional tex image fallback renderer - line node.src = AMTcgiloc + '?' + texstring; must just be changed to node.src = AMTcgiloc + texstring; in function AMTparseMath(str,istex) of that file I have tested for example a cleaned and modified texdebug.php script as image fallback script (files of tex filter are used if mathml is not supported) and it seems to work ok. This only requires that site has correct latex, dvips and convert paths (other than mimetex and ImageMagick or Ghostscript installed) to produce nice png files. With this script placed to filter/tex folder it is also possible to use for example package color and change density but it may be better to limit density changes to avoid too large images. Example (demo) of usage of this tiny tex filter based fallback script http://korpelainen.net/m19tiny2/filter/tex/tinytex.php?action=ShowImageTex&amdensity=200&tex=\textcolor {blue} {\alpha} \textcolor {green} {\mathcal{ABC}}\sum_ {m=1} ^\infty\sum_ {n=1} ^\infty\frac {m^2\,n} {3^m\left(m\,3^n+n\,3^m\right)} Some settings of asciimathml js file must be selected carefully, for example avoidinnerHTML must be true with tinymce notifyIfNoSVG could be false to avoid confusion but basicly the whole integration can be made with one row in theme header.html, meta.php or footer.html: <script type="text/javascript" src="path to asciimathml script"></script> and extra parameters (variables) can be given inside script tags like <script type="text/javascript">var mathfontfamily = 'STIXGeneral,Arial Unicode MS,"Lucida Sans Unicode","Lucida Grande",Garuda,sans-serif';</script> in theme if different settings are needed in different themes but all settings can be given in the script file itself as well. We could well start with a some basic version of script like that ASCIIMathML2wMnGFallback.js and modify and replace it later with a new version with new features if necessary...
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          The previous example - with \displaystyle and smaller density

          http://korpelainen.net/m19tiny2/filter/tex/tinytex.php?action=ShowImageTex&amdensity=120&tex=\textcolor

          {blue} {\alpha}

          \textcolor

          {green}

          {\mathcal{ABC}}\displaystyle\sum_

          {m=1}

          ^\infty\sum_

          {n=1}

          ^\infty\frac

          {m^2\,n} {3^m\left(m\,3^n+n\,3^m\right)}
          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - The previous example - with \displaystyle and smaller density http://korpelainen.net/m19tiny2/filter/tex/tinytex.php?action=ShowImageTex&amdensity=120&tex=\textcolor {blue} {\alpha} \textcolor {green} {\mathcal{ABC}}\displaystyle\sum_ {m=1} ^\infty\sum_ {n=1} ^\infty\frac {m^2\,n} {3^m\left(m\,3^n+n\,3^m\right)}
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          And some small issues like smiley conflicts can be solved on custom theme level as well - for example smileys can be set in theme config.php with

          $CFG->emoticons = '(smiley){:}smiley

          {;}(smile){:}smiley{;}

          :-D{:}biggrin

          {;}{:}wink{;}

          :-/{:}mixed

          {;}V-.{:}thoughtful{;}

          :-P{:}tongueout

          {;}B-){:}cool{;}

          ^-){:}approve

          {;}8-){:}wideeyes{;}

          :o){:}clown

          {;}(sad1){:}sad{;}

          (sad2){:}sad

          {;}8-.{:}shy{;}

          :-I{:}blush

          {;}:-X{:}kiss{;}

          8-o{:}surprise

          {;}P-|{:}blackeye{;}

          8-[{:}angry

          {;}xx-P{:}dead{;}

          |.{:}sleepy{;}}]{:}evil

          {;}(h){:}heart{;}

          (heart){:}heart

          {;}(yes){:}yes{;}

          (no){:}no

          {;}(martin){:}martin{;}

          (egg){:}egg';

          or totally turned off in theme config.php to avoid some mathematical notations to be shown as smileys.

          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - And some small issues like smiley conflicts can be solved on custom theme level as well - for example smileys can be set in theme config.php with $CFG->emoticons = '(smiley){:}smiley {;}(smile){:}smiley{;} :-D{:}biggrin {;} {:}wink{;} :-/{:}mixed {;}V-.{:}thoughtful{;} :-P{:}tongueout {;}B-){:}cool{;} ^-){:}approve {;}8-){:}wideeyes{;} :o){:}clown {;}(sad1){:}sad{;} (sad2){:}sad {;}8-.{:}shy{;} :-I{:}blush {;}:-X{:}kiss{;} 8-o{:}surprise {;}P-|{:}blackeye{;} 8-[{:}angry {;}xx-P{:}dead{;} | .{:}sleepy{;}} ]{:}evil {;}(h){:}heart{;} (heart){:}heart {;}(yes){:}yes{;} (no){:}no {;}(martin){:}martin{;} (egg){:}egg'; or totally turned off in theme config.php to avoid some mathematical notations to be shown as smileys.
          Hide
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment -

          Guys, this is confusing me .... I don't want to get into a cycle of having to update experimental code for this every week on moodle.org ... perhaps we really need a separate public test server?

          One possibly stupid question ... if we did implement this and someone using the new theme inserts some math notation into a forum, will it be visible to someone using the normal Moodle2 theme? What will they see?

          Show
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment - Guys, this is confusing me .... I don't want to get into a cycle of having to update experimental code for this every week on moodle.org ... perhaps we really need a separate public test server? One possibly stupid question ... if we did implement this and someone using the new theme inserts some math notation into a forum, will it be visible to someone using the normal Moodle2 theme? What will they see?
          Hide
          Marc Grober added a comment -

          Not experimental code...... anymore than one might say Moodle tex is..... yet tex on moodle.org is now broken ;=}

          Like Moodle itself (and tex) things change. And like Moodle itself (and tex) their are always options. ASCIIMathML will continue to develop like any other element of Moodle. AND Mauno is excited about this development, like many others are, but he has been working on making a new html editor with Math functionality available in Moodle 2 for months and he has every right to be excited over the prospects! But his excitement over wanting to share some of the options that asciimath offers does not mean that this is some half baked scheme.... ASCIIMathML is widely used NOW. Many Moodles are in fact now using the very ASCIIMathML code I suggest we roll out (with a change in fallback server for production purposes)

          As Mauno indicates, the code pointed to lists David Lippman's mimetex server, and I have volunteered that the code can point to mine instead and there are other options that can be implemented - including the option mentioned by Mauno, using Moodle.org's tex as a fallback- which would probably be best....

          I think it will be easier to have someone familiar with asciimath manage the files and as they live in a separate directory this could easily be managed, and changes in the asciimath files will not effect the function of any other part of Moodle.org

          A user who does not use the Math theme will see a text expression that resembles a tex text expression as in `root(3)(27)` or $\sqrt[3}27$ - using asciisvg one would see code describing the svg. Now, I suggested an independent theme because that would provide a transition, though no real transition is necessary..... but it is a "baby step". Bottom line is that asciimath is faster than tex and is used more and more widely by Moodle users so that it is important to be able to discuss it in Moodle forums and docs and thus it is necessary as well to support its display, as is the case with tex. However, while tex can be a formidable nightmare, asciimath is simple and easy to install and use; hence its popularity. You also need to understand that asciimath will initially likely only appear in the Math forum as initially that is where it will eb discussed. Of course, as users realize that they can use it to address matters in the quiz forum, or what have you, it will eventually be as widespread as tex usage (though I think a bit wider as more people will find it easier to use.)

          As far as smileys, there have been smiley conflicts for a while, especially as far as thumbs up and down.... tracker items addressing inconsistent use of square brackets have appeared in the wiki forum and elsewhere..... and this should be fixed with or without asciimath's inclusion.

          Show
          Marc Grober added a comment - Not experimental code...... anymore than one might say Moodle tex is..... yet tex on moodle.org is now broken ;=} Like Moodle itself (and tex) things change. And like Moodle itself (and tex) their are always options. ASCIIMathML will continue to develop like any other element of Moodle. AND Mauno is excited about this development, like many others are, but he has been working on making a new html editor with Math functionality available in Moodle 2 for months and he has every right to be excited over the prospects! But his excitement over wanting to share some of the options that asciimath offers does not mean that this is some half baked scheme.... ASCIIMathML is widely used NOW. Many Moodles are in fact now using the very ASCIIMathML code I suggest we roll out (with a change in fallback server for production purposes) As Mauno indicates, the code pointed to lists David Lippman's mimetex server, and I have volunteered that the code can point to mine instead and there are other options that can be implemented - including the option mentioned by Mauno, using Moodle.org's tex as a fallback- which would probably be best.... I think it will be easier to have someone familiar with asciimath manage the files and as they live in a separate directory this could easily be managed, and changes in the asciimath files will not effect the function of any other part of Moodle.org A user who does not use the Math theme will see a text expression that resembles a tex text expression as in `root(3)(27)` or $\sqrt[3}27$ - using asciisvg one would see code describing the svg. Now, I suggested an independent theme because that would provide a transition, though no real transition is necessary..... but it is a "baby step". Bottom line is that asciimath is faster than tex and is used more and more widely by Moodle users so that it is important to be able to discuss it in Moodle forums and docs and thus it is necessary as well to support its display, as is the case with tex. However, while tex can be a formidable nightmare, asciimath is simple and easy to install and use; hence its popularity. You also need to understand that asciimath will initially likely only appear in the Math forum as initially that is where it will eb discussed. Of course, as users realize that they can use it to address matters in the quiz forum, or what have you, it will eventually be as widespread as tex usage (though I think a bit wider as more people will find it easier to use.) As far as smileys, there have been smiley conflicts for a while, especially as far as thumbs up and down.... tracker items addressing inconsistent use of square brackets have appeared in the wiki forum and elsewhere..... and this should be fixed with or without asciimath's inclusion.
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          Basicly these old and new AsciiMathML javascripts are just a simple way to support MathML ( http://www.w3.org/Math/ ) in moodle
          "ASCIIMath provides a JavaScript library to rewrite a convenient Wiki-like text syntax used inline in web pages into MathML on the fly; it works in Gecko-based browsers, and Internet Explorer with MathPlayer. LaTeXMathML does the same for (a subset of) the standard LaTeX mathematical syntax." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Web_conversion )

          Because IE will probably never render MathML without extra plugins (Math Player) we need some image fallback. It's the same with SVG - we can't currently use pure SVG for various reasons (for example security - scripts can be injected to normal svg images) but AsciiSVG gives a way to use limited SVG images (graphs) and render graphs as images for browsers that do not have native support for SVG (IE). It's easier than to require that everybody should install Adobe SVG viewer that is no longer maintained by Adobe.

          Peter Jibsen and David Lippman are the original maintainers of AsciiMathML and AsciiSVG and we could use the original scripts - but we can also use modified scripts if we want ( under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License )

          The plugins with different variations that I have tested are ment to be usefull for users of moodle 2.0 and TinyMCE when both are stable. That code is experimental but I suppose Marc was originally suggesting that one theme in moodle.org could have some version of AsciiMathML.js - not necessarely my plugins or tinymce...

          I guess moodle.org had a little bit similar situation some years ago when mathematical notations were tested with tex filter and limited subset of Tex commands in algebra filter - I like TeX and we can do a lot with it but in my opinion algebra filter could go to history. The main difference between TeX and AsciiMathML/LatexMathML is that TeX can only show images but AsciiMathML/LatexMathML can render MathML or images if MathML is not supported. And TeX filter could also be further developed to an advanced tex filter... Adding graphs is a big issue in usability of maths in moodle - it is easier to add graphs with plugin or code than first create graphs in some programs, take a screenshot etc and upload the graphs to moodle - if you need to edit them later you need to do it all over again...

          I don't want to rush using of untested scripts in public forums of moodle.org - on the other hand few people know about different ways to add mathematics to moodle. Luckily Ian Wild is writing a book about Moodle Maths and we can all try to create some new ideas/code/documentation. The benefit of having some sort of Math Theme with mathematical plugins in maths forum (or later some other themes with plugins helping language teaching, music and entertainment etc) could be that different courses may have different needs and moodle.org or some subservers like http://demo.moodle.org/ are the main forums for millions of people to demonstrate how these tools work and can be used.

          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - Basicly these old and new AsciiMathML javascripts are just a simple way to support MathML ( http://www.w3.org/Math/ ) in moodle "ASCIIMath provides a JavaScript library to rewrite a convenient Wiki-like text syntax used inline in web pages into MathML on the fly; it works in Gecko-based browsers, and Internet Explorer with MathPlayer. LaTeXMathML does the same for (a subset of) the standard LaTeX mathematical syntax." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MathML#Web_conversion ) Because IE will probably never render MathML without extra plugins (Math Player) we need some image fallback. It's the same with SVG - we can't currently use pure SVG for various reasons (for example security - scripts can be injected to normal svg images) but AsciiSVG gives a way to use limited SVG images (graphs) and render graphs as images for browsers that do not have native support for SVG (IE). It's easier than to require that everybody should install Adobe SVG viewer that is no longer maintained by Adobe. Peter Jibsen and David Lippman are the original maintainers of AsciiMathML and AsciiSVG and we could use the original scripts - but we can also use modified scripts if we want ( under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License ) The plugins with different variations that I have tested are ment to be usefull for users of moodle 2.0 and TinyMCE when both are stable. That code is experimental but I suppose Marc was originally suggesting that one theme in moodle.org could have some version of AsciiMathML.js - not necessarely my plugins or tinymce... I guess moodle.org had a little bit similar situation some years ago when mathematical notations were tested with tex filter and limited subset of Tex commands in algebra filter - I like TeX and we can do a lot with it but in my opinion algebra filter could go to history. The main difference between TeX and AsciiMathML/LatexMathML is that TeX can only show images but AsciiMathML/LatexMathML can render MathML or images if MathML is not supported. And TeX filter could also be further developed to an advanced tex filter... Adding graphs is a big issue in usability of maths in moodle - it is easier to add graphs with plugin or code than first create graphs in some programs, take a screenshot etc and upload the graphs to moodle - if you need to edit them later you need to do it all over again... I don't want to rush using of untested scripts in public forums of moodle.org - on the other hand few people know about different ways to add mathematics to moodle. Luckily Ian Wild is writing a book about Moodle Maths and we can all try to create some new ideas/code/documentation. The benefit of having some sort of Math Theme with mathematical plugins in maths forum (or later some other themes with plugins helping language teaching, music and entertainment etc) could be that different courses may have different needs and moodle.org or some subservers like http://demo.moodle.org/ are the main forums for millions of people to demonstrate how these tools work and can be used.
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          It might be also possible to rewrite the old asciimathml filter following the guidelines that Tim is using for moodle 2.0 filters and replace current algebra filter with asciimathml filter using delimiters @@...@@ for asciimathml instead of current delimiters `...`. Most symbols of algebra filter are similar to symbols in asciimathml - syntax is not equal but it is not a big task to edit old forum posts about algebra filter to use asciimathml syntax - as far as I understand very few people really use algebra filter today - because TeX filter can do all the things that algebra filter does and 1000 things more.

          While @@alpha@@ with algebra filter produces a tex tag \alpha and shows it as image using Tex filter asciimathml with image fallback to tex filter would do exactly the same thing for IE without Math Player. For FF using asciimathml no tex filter is used at all - FF would output character \u03B1 which is shown immediately as ? (greek small letter alpha) and this makes asciimathml (or latexmathml) faster than rendering a large number of images (if you have lots of TeX maths on page) - each image creates a new http request in TeX but characters in asciimathml create just symbols like any unicode letters we write.

          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - It might be also possible to rewrite the old asciimathml filter following the guidelines that Tim is using for moodle 2.0 filters and replace current algebra filter with asciimathml filter using delimiters @@...@@ for asciimathml instead of current delimiters `...`. Most symbols of algebra filter are similar to symbols in asciimathml - syntax is not equal but it is not a big task to edit old forum posts about algebra filter to use asciimathml syntax - as far as I understand very few people really use algebra filter today - because TeX filter can do all the things that algebra filter does and 1000 things more. While @@alpha@@ with algebra filter produces a tex tag \alpha and shows it as image using Tex filter asciimathml with image fallback to tex filter would do exactly the same thing for IE without Math Player. For FF using asciimathml no tex filter is used at all - FF would output character \u03B1 which is shown immediately as ? (greek small letter alpha) and this makes asciimathml (or latexmathml) faster than rendering a large number of images (if you have lots of TeX maths on page) - each image creates a new http request in TeX but characters in asciimathml create just symbols like any unicode letters we write.
          Hide
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment -

          I just found these posts from year 2004 (when I searched posts about MathML) :

          http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6860

          Marc, let's try to make the whole asciimathml plugin system "ready" and fully functional for moodle 2.0 and come back to the topic later. I don't think we need to hurry getting asciimathml to moodle.org - we can write more documentation about it (and Latex etc) and clarify those confusing things like different versions, commands, integration of scripts and variables and so on - and hopefully get more people involved to developing of new tools for mathematics.

          I know I can use my editor plugin prototypes to produce also a new javascript based Latex plugin for moodle 2.0 (in addition to Dragmath that we can also improve), create that advanced unicode picker, asciisvg plugin needs more graph types (with GD for IE), we might need that calculator, some kind of example database or activity for maths, physics and chemistry...

          Lots of things to do during coming months and years for all of us - that can be implemented through theme or other ways - but as long as we have "open issues" moodle.org may not be the right place for testing new code. "Big things" change slowly -)

          Show
          Mauno Korpelainen added a comment - I just found these posts from year 2004 (when I searched posts about MathML) : http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=6860 Marc, let's try to make the whole asciimathml plugin system "ready" and fully functional for moodle 2.0 and come back to the topic later. I don't think we need to hurry getting asciimathml to moodle.org - we can write more documentation about it (and Latex etc) and clarify those confusing things like different versions, commands, integration of scripts and variables and so on - and hopefully get more people involved to developing of new tools for mathematics. I know I can use my editor plugin prototypes to produce also a new javascript based Latex plugin for moodle 2.0 (in addition to Dragmath that we can also improve), create that advanced unicode picker, asciisvg plugin needs more graph types (with GD for IE), we might need that calculator, some kind of example database or activity for maths, physics and chemistry... Lots of things to do during coming months and years for all of us - that can be implemented through theme or other ways - but as long as we have "open issues" moodle.org may not be the right place for testing new code. "Big things" change slowly -)
          Hide
          Marc Grober added a comment -

          With MD insisting Moodle 2 is on its way, I would like to suggest again that we look at providing a moodle.org theme that would incorporate MathJax and asciimath and that such options be implemented in docs. If we want to support the full range of Math construction and display technology necessary for Moodle to be effective Math instruction tool, Moodle.org needs to be able to support same.

          Show
          Marc Grober added a comment - With MD insisting Moodle 2 is on its way, I would like to suggest again that we look at providing a moodle.org theme that would incorporate MathJax and asciimath and that such options be implemented in docs. If we want to support the full range of Math construction and display technology necessary for Moodle to be effective Math instruction tool, Moodle.org needs to be able to support same.
          Hide
          Anthony Borrow added a comment -

          Marc - Any updates on this with 2.0 now running on Moodle.org - I know that dragmath was to be in 2.0 core so I was curious how that might impact this issue. Thanks for any updates and continued suggestions you might have. Peace - Anthony

          Show
          Anthony Borrow added a comment - Marc - Any updates on this with 2.0 now running on Moodle.org - I know that dragmath was to be in 2.0 core so I was curious how that might impact this issue. Thanks for any updates and continued suggestions you might have. Peace - Anthony
          Hide
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment -

          Just FYI, Dragmath is active on moodle.org

          Show
          Martin Dougiamas added a comment - Just FYI, Dragmath is active on moodle.org
          Hide
          Marc Grober added a comment -

          MD,
          See thread on dragmath in moodle 2 from last week in math forum and Mauno's comments on SEE. I am dealing with a bit of an exigency at the moment (iPhone spell checker substituted Scotsman for exigency-lol) so don't have time to rehash the arguments, but moodle.org does need to support SEE

          Show
          Marc Grober added a comment - MD, See thread on dragmath in moodle 2 from last week in math forum and Mauno's comments on SEE. I am dealing with a bit of an exigency at the moment (iPhone spell checker substituted Scotsman for exigency-lol) so don't have time to rehash the arguments, but moodle.org does need to support SEE
          Hide
          Marc Grober added a comment -

          see http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=197290&parent=885058
          Display of ASCIIMathML in Moodle Docs can now be implemented via the MagthJax plugin already implemented. All the SA has to do is change the config file and test the delimiters.

          Show
          Marc Grober added a comment - see http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=197290&parent=885058 Display of ASCIIMathML in Moodle Docs can now be implemented via the MagthJax plugin already implemented. All the SA has to do is change the config file and test the delimiters.

            People

            • Votes:
              3 Vote for this issue
              Watchers:
              5 Start watching this issue

              Dates

              • Created:
                Updated:

                Development